Interview with Patrick James McGinnis, author of Fear of Missing Out: Practical Decision-Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice. We discuss the fears we have with decision making, and how to ensure you’re making right decision when it comes to kids. www.givelegacy.com www.instagram.com/givelegacyinc
On this episode we chat with Patrick McGinnis. Patrick is an author, venture capitalist, and globetrotter.
We learn more about his life growing up in Maine, his travels, and his lessons on making big decisions in life.
This episode is great for men who are starting to think about having a family, but have questions and fears they’re looking to reconcile. These feelings are natural, and we learn how one can feel confident with the path they’re choosing.
Khaled Kteily:
Hello everyone, and welcome to season one of Building A Legacy, podcasts on becoming a parent, growing your career, and finding a way to be the best you can at both. Today, we'll be chatting with Patrick McGinnis. He's best known for coining the term fear of missing out, while at Harvard Business School. He's since published several books on decision-making. Most recently, Fear of Missing Out: Practical Decision-Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice. His 2020 TED Talk, How to Make Faster Decisions is live, and is well-worth the watch, if you're the type who doesn't like to miss out.
What I loved about speaking with Patrick is how methodically he thinks about his life and his decision-making. Because he has such a storied career in finance, this type of rational thinking clearly comes very naturally to him, and that shines through throughout the podcast. I think there's a lot that we can learn from Patrick. So, without further ado, here's our interview.
Well, hey Patrick, we are very excited to have you on the podcast. I actually feel like this is a great starting point to kick off the conversation because, as we know, you are kind of the King of FOMO and now FOBO. And it just feels like it's a principle that you've applied very much to your own personal life of seeing every country you can, visiting every region you can. So, where does that come from? Is that a fear of missing out and in terms of not seeing every country you can? Tell us a little bit more about that.
Patrick McGinnis:
It's funny you ask that question because I've been thinking about it a little bit, sort of like I had this goal. I never sort of set out to visit 100 countries, but when I got into the 50s or 60s, I sort of thought, "I'd like to go to 100 countries." And so, I just passed that threshold last year. And I would never want to say that I traveled just to hit a number because that's ridiculous. But it sort of didn't inspire me, if I was in South Africa I would sort of add on a little side trip to Eswatini, or something.
And so, part of it was that I'm a competitive person and I'm metrics driven. And part of it is yes, this desire to see and explore, I think because I come from the state of Maine and I never left America until I was 21 years old.
Khaled Kteily:
Really?
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah, right? So, that's why it's just sort of like the opposite of what I grew up with.
Khaled Kteily:
Wow. So, where are the last few countries you've been to?
Patrick McGinnis:
The last five we're in December, I went to Mozambique, South Africa and Eswatini, formerly known as Swaziland. And then, in January I went to Guatemala and El Salvador. And that was it. It was over.
Khaled Kteily:
Nice, just before COVID hit. And actually you are from Maine, and the very last place that I went to before lockdown was actually Portland, Maine, where we spent a few days. So, that's the last place I remember visiting.
Patrick McGinnis:
Well, you should go back because it is the best place to spend summer during a pandemic. It is absolutely fantastic.
Khaled Kteily:
So, you started leaving home at 21. You've traveled on the road quite a bit. And one of the topics that we're kind of going to keep coming back to is this idea of what are the steps that every man should be thinking about as he goes through his life? And we have a lot of very traditional norms and expectations around you probably go to university, you graduate, you work for a few years, and then you think about meeting the right person, settling down. And with that comes a series of steps that are very much expected of many of us, which is you get married, you have kids, you raise them. Hopefully you don't scar them too badly.
So, you've spent the last little while traveling quite a lot. You're seeing the world, you're experiencing a side of the world that, I think, most people don't even have the chance to do. But with that comes a choice in a way to not pursue the more traditional path. I was hoping you could tell me a little bit more about that and what drives you.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah. And the traditional path is something that was definitely ingrained in me. And I remember the minute, the first time I ever realized that it didn't have to necessarily follow a sort of prescribed path. As I said, I grew up in the state of Maine. And in Maine, what I saw growing up was not a lot of people went to college per se. I come from sort of a very blue collar background. But it was like you would go to high school, and then you would be married by 25. And I remember people would say like, "You want to have kids when you're young, you want to be young with your kids." I remember this woman telling me this when I was a summer intern at a bank in my hometown. I worked at a branch as a teller.
Let's think about this now, she probably was like 43 at the time. And her kids were like graduating high school or something.
Khaled Kteily:
Wow.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah, I know. And I was like, "Whoa." I have a number of friends from high school who, already, their kids are in college, so who are like in their early 40s. So, it's kind of wild up there.
And so, I thought that was the path. I remember saying, "Well, I'll be married by 25. And I'll have kids at 27," this sort of stuff, which has not happened. Now, why is that? I remember the first time I realized that you could do some things a little different timeline is that I studied in Argentina and one of the people that was in our cohort was in his mid thirties and hadn't settled down yet. And was living this sort of like college life, which I didn't necessarily want that for myself. But I was like, "That's interesting. This guy is doing things out of order. And you don't have to necessarily have a 15 year plan."
And the other thing is that I've seen all the people who had those plans, I had many friends who had those plans and either they did it and seemed miserable. Or they didn't end up doing any of it because life, of course, makes plans for us. And so, that's just kind of how I started to think differently about that. And then, over time I think as a man, and this is an illusion probably so I'm fooling myself, but we think we have more time because women have biological considerations, men don't in the same ways. And so, I know lots of guys who have kids in their 40s and 50s. And so, I don't feel the pressure. That's definitely a factor.
Khaled Kteily:
And what you're describing actually aligns with a lot of trends we're seeing in the US right now. We were studying this a few months back. And we found that in the US if you even look at the median age, it's gone up since the 1970s by about 10 years. So, the median age in the '70s was about 28. The median age in the US is now 38. And with that is coming people who are getting married later. So, median age of marriage has gone up about six or seven years. People are, therefore, choosing to have children later. And all of this has these profound implications for what it means to go back to your colleague when you were a teller, who said you want to be young with your kids. What was the expression? How did she frame it?
Patrick McGinnis:
You want to have kids when you're young, so you're young with your kids.
Khaled Kteily:
Which makes a ton of sense. But what's interesting to me is particularly kind of on both coasts in the New Yorks, and Bostons, and San Franciscos, You are seeing people make the opposite decision, which is they are choosing to have kids later and get married later. And you write so much about making these kinds of decisions that I'm curious to hear a little bit more, if you were speaking to a younger version of Patrick McGinnis, arguably just as handsome, what words of wisdom, or words of caution would you give to him?
Patrick McGinnis:
I think the big thing that you learn and I've learned, but I think many of us learn is that trying to make other people happy will very likely not make you very happy. And so, thinking about so much of the decision-making that I see in people is driven by trying to please your parents. So, think about all those people who went and became pre-med because their parents wanted it, and there's cultural stuff there too. And then, they fail, out and then they discover I actually want to be, I don't know, a political scientist or something, whatever it is. My parents were great in that they never ... my mom, her big criteria was you should always have health insurance, everything else you do what you want, which is kind of amazing.
Khaled Kteily:
Especially in the US.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah, exactly. But I would say that I was very much focused on conventional ideas of success. Get the job in investment banking, go to the top school, get the highest grades, measure your worth on salary.
Khaled Kteily:
Well, and in many ways you did that. You were at Georgetown, you went to Harvard Business School. So, many people could argue that actually you did end up hitting those traditional metrics of success.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah. And then, it all blew up in my face. And I realized there's more. I still value those things, but I realized that you could check all the boxes and end up in a world of hurt.
Khaled Kteily:
So, you're living in New York now, which arguably is the city of FOMO. And one of the reasons I've always been terrified of moving to New York because I feel like I would never know what to do with myself because there'd be so many exciting things going on. And I'm curious to hear from your perspective, in contrast to your time at Maine, which is a very different kind of culture and vibe, and expectations around what it means to grow up, or settle down in Maine versus to grow up, or settle down in New York, what kind of differences do you see between those two, I'll call it cultures? Because I do think it's different cultures. What kind of differences do you see between those two?
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah, they are different cultures. And I've been in Maine a lot this summer because of the pandemic. And I spent much of it in New York, but then in the last month or two, I've spent about three and a half weeks in Maine. So, I've really seen that contrast. I think number one, is that people just do a lot less in Maine, so there's a lot more home time. People, they have these large homes and yards, and so it's all about sort of the traditional a man's house is his castle kind of thing. A lot of home improvement projects and things like that.
In Manhattan where I live-
Khaled Kteily:
Yeah, your home is like, your home is basically a closet.
Patrick McGinnis:
It is. It's your life is lived in public spaces, which is such an interesting dynamic about the city. Most people don't have a kitchen table, you live in restaurants. And so, there's that. And then, just the simple amount of choice, of course. I talk about the title of my book is Fear of Missing Out: Practical Decision-Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice. You go on Open Table in New York City and there are hundreds or thousands of restaurants. In Maine, I went an Open Table and there were like nine restaurants. And so, just that choice, and as a result, what I find is that, obviously, when you go to a place like Maine, where life is simpler, it's very easy to relax. You just sort of feel your level of stress is a fraction of what it was. That being said, it's also kind of boring at times, and that can be nice for a couple of weeks, but is that what you want for your life? It could be. But not for everybody.
Khaled Kteily:
So, you've lived a very peripatetic, on the move kind of lifestyle. How have you survived the last five months being mostly in quarantine or in lockdown?
Patrick McGinnis:
I was talking about this with a friend of mine yesterday, about what we learned during lockdown. Because you're right, my whole thing is being out amongst the people. One thing I learned in this experience is that how much more resilient I was than I thought. I've been able to sort of adapt myself. Number two is that I don't have regrets, I've done it all. I've kind of gone everywhere I want to go. So, I've actually really leaned into okay, what would it be like to just stay in one place? And what are the opportunities that presents in terms of like having a family? And so, I think it's actually a wonderful reset. And I think many of us are saying, "Well, I used to travel way more than I needed to. Do I want to go back to that? No."
Khaled Kteily:
So, actually, I want to take us back to the past and then I'm going to take us to the future. Because you mentioned how you had followed these traditional metrics of success. It kind of felt like it blew up in your face. And you've written the book, The 10% Entrepreneur. And it sounds like, in many ways, you were kind of acting that out. You were working for AIG, you were starting a business. On paper, a lot of this was stability, very low risk that should have given you the opportunities to pursue riskier entrepreneurial endeavors. Then, of course, financial crisis happens, AIG collapses. How did you think about that in the context of your own 10% entrepreneur mindset?
Patrick McGinnis:
So, The 10% Entrepreneur, actually, if you go back, I was not entrepreneurial. I was working full-time at AIG. I was not doing anything on the side. And when the crisis hit, because I thought, "Well, I'm working in this," I didn't think AIG was particularly exciting, but the division I was in, which was private equity venture capital, was super exciting. So, I had this kind of risky, high risk, high flying job within this very large stable institution, so I thought. And then, when AIG was affected by the crisis, like my shares that I held in AIG fell 97%, and I saw people's entire sort of retirement wiped out. I mean, it was a nightmare. And my insight was that stability is a myth. And that I had the Harvard MBA, but I was still out 97% of the value of my shares. So, it's like, well, what's the point of that?
And so, then I looked at all my friends in Silicon Valley, which was booming and I was like, "Wow, entrepreneurship is supposed to be the risky thing and they're all doing great. How can I combine the two?" So I was like, "I'll keep my day job. I'll start being an entrepreneur on the side, part of my time, 10% of my time, money, energy." And that was this idea of marrying stability with this kind of uncorrelated assets, as it were, as a way to build a portfolio that belongs to you.
Khaled Kteily:
In your personal and professional life?
Patrick McGinnis:
Totally, that was the insight.
Khaled Kteily:
That makes a ton of sense. So, I'm going to ... sorry, I'm switching timelines here. But we have past Patrick and present Patrick, who's now going through this reset. And I completely agree, by the way. I think many of us are redefining what our normal lives mean. I know I canceled a lot of trips and I've been secretly kind of relieved about it. It's been kind of nice to just be at home, and be stable, and be calm for a few months. But if we look forward, so you've ticked off a lot of the boxes that you were hoping to tick off, or hoping to tick. How do you think about your own future now? You're not going to bring age into it, but you're over 40.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yes.
Khaled Kteily:
How do you think about potentially settling down, or starting a family? And how do you think about that in the context of decision-making because that's what you've been so thoughtful about in your career.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah, well, the way I think about it, a lot of times, so I look at other people. I think many of us do when you don't have kids yet, or something like that. You look at the people in your life that do, and you see who's doing this in a way that makes sense to me, in a way that I'd want to do it too, and who isn't? And so, you see those friends who seem to find a lot of joy in the experience of being a parent. And you see the people who just seem miserable. And we all know those people.
Khaled Kteily:
Those are the anti-role models, right?
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah.
Khaled Kteily:
Those are the people you don't want to be.
Patrick McGinnis:
And the thing that's crazy is that so, if you were to sort of whiteboard this, you'd be like, "Okay, the people are happy are the ones who have the nannies, and the money, and have the Hamptons house, and all that sort of stuff. And the people are miserable are the one who can't afford any help and dah, dah, dah." You'd think these things, but these correlations are not there a lot of times. It's about sort of prioritization, and interest, and the stability of your relationship and all this other stuff.
And so, I look at my brother. My brother, who is older than me, just had his first child a year and a half ago. And I look at the decisions that he and his wife have made, and the way that they kind of are experiencing being parents. And I find that model, they take a lot of interest in their child. They're very involved. It's very collaborative. She's really doing well. And so, I think, for me, as I look at that, okay, that's a really good way of doing things. And I think that's part of the value of doing this as you're older is that you know yourself better, and you have also done a lot of the things that are the FOMO drivers. And so, you're able to put your emphasis on what's important. And so, that's been an important way for me to think about it.
Khaled Kteily:
So, did you feel any of your paternal instincts kind of kicking in now that you're an uncle?
Patrick McGinnis:
Well, I definitely enjoy spending time with her. I also realize it's a lot of work. And so, I think when you see parents with their kids, and they they have a great relationship. And you see the parent in the child and you're like, "Oh my goodness, it's like a mini me," you can't help, but just be like, "I want a mini me. And so, I think, that definitely is. And I also think that part of me also says, I mean, when you have a child one really neat thing about it is you have a clarifying thing in your day. It's like all the bull it just all becomes irrelevant. And so, I think that's a really powerful thing about just how do you set the tone for what's your life mean? So, that's really cool too is it just kind of clarifies things.
Khaled Kteily:
It's interesting because I, obviously, think about my own kind of journey to fatherhood and becoming a father. And I'll be honest, I have a lot of fear associated with that decision because it also feels like an extremely irreversible decision. You can get married to someone, but you can still get divorced if things don't work out down the line. But when you choose to have a child or more with someone you can't put the baby back in the womb. So, for me, at least there's a lot of fear associated with that decision. How do you feel about that?
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah, you're right. I mean, there's always boarding school, but that only starts later on.
Khaled Kteily:
I think the English did it right.
Patrick McGinnis:
It's terrible. No, it's funny. I was talking to my mom about boarding school and she views boarding school as a sign that parents don't love their children. I was trying to explain to her that's not necessarily what it is, but anyway. It's just a different kind of mindset.
Khaled Kteily:
They love time away from their children.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah, exactly. I think that's right. And, also, you see people who will have children and those children will have special needs, and that redefines your entire life. So, I think some of the fear can just be about, "Wow, what if things don't go perfectly? And then, all of a sudden, we have a child who requires a tremendous financial commitment," or these things that are really difficult to deal with and put stress on relationships, and everything like that. So, I think there's definitely fear there.
One of the things people do when they have kids, this happens all the time. I'm sure you've heard this. You have those friends who have the three kids and they're just like, "Don't have a baby because the minute you do your life is over," and that sort of stuff. And I think that is a really sad way to look at the world because you're coming at it from a negative mindset. So, I would say, yeah, there's fear there. But, at the same time, so much of life, as we know, is how you live it, and your mindset. It's you get up in the morning, if it's rainy out, is your mindset, "What a crappy day? I don't want to leave"? Or is it like, "Wow it's nice to have a change in the weather"? It's all about perspective.
Patrick McGinnis:
And so, I just re-read, as many of us have, Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning. And it's meaning comes from our work, it's from love, and it's from finding meaning in suffering. And so, when you have a child, you've got that love part.
Khaled Kteily:
So you are finding meaning in suffering through love?
Patrick McGinnis:
No. You're finding meaning in the love, of course, meaning in the love. And maybe the suffering too but that's okay too. That's part of life.
Khaled Kteily:
So, Patrick your new book, Fear of Missing Out: Practical Decision-Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice, came out actually just a few months ago. So, it feels very timely, right around the time the pandemic hit. Can you share a little bit more about the book? What was the inspiration? What should readers be taking away from this piece of literature?
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah, so I wrote the book, I coined the term FOMO when I was a graduate student at Harvard Business School and it went off and got famous and I didn't really realize, it to be honest with you. And then, I did realize it. The dictionary and a reporter called me and interviewed me, and here we are. And so, I had written my first book, and I was on book tour all over the world, actually. And I was actually standing in Beirut at this beautiful beach club. And I was talking to this very well-known tech entrepreneur, who everybody knows. And I was excited to be talking to him. And somebody came and interrupted us and said, "Do you mind if I cut in?" And I said, "Well sure, of course you want to talk to him." And he said, "No, no, I want to take a selfie with you because you invented FOMO."
Khaled Kteily:
Oh, that's a big moment.
Patrick McGinnis:
Right? And I was like, "Wow, you're the head of a bank, really?" And so, that was the moment I thought, "This FOMO thing is interesting. I should think about what I want to do with it." I created a podcast, and I started, called FOMO Sapiens. And as I talked to people, I realized decision-making is something we all think we do well, and we think everybody else does poorly.
Khaled Kteily:
Yeah. It's like driving, everyone thinks they're a good driver and else sucks.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah. That's a fantastic point. Thank you for that, I'm going to use that. And so, there you go. And so, I thought, "What is FOMO and FOBO?" It's really about finding the power to do what you actually want and then finding the courage to miss out on the rest. And so, I decided to write a book about decision-making because we live in a world, which we're constantly making decisions and we're overwhelmed with the amount of options we have because of the modern life that we live, the digital life we live. And so, people spend a lot of their time feeling frustrated. So, I wanted to help.
Khaled Kteily:
Yeah. So, so let's drill down a little bit. I want to talk a little bit about how can we contextualize that for men who are thinking about settling down, potentially becoming fathers? Let's say you are talking to that 25 year old men. And I think for, for many men, that's probably around the point at which they are thinking, do they want to be focused more on family, settling down, having kids? Or do they want to be more focused on their career? And something I've noticed is, you mentioned role models earlier, there are very few role models to look towards as men who have been career oriented, but also care a lot about being a good husband, being a good father. So, let's take this man or transgender woman, who's at a crossroads in their life. How should they be thinking about being potentially a future father in the context of some of the recommendations you have around decision-making? How can they draw it out? How can they whiteboard it? What's the best way for them to be thinking through this decision?
Patrick McGinnis:
So, the first thing is we think about FOMO, what is FOMO? And the definition of FOMO is it's an anxiety caused by the feeling that somebody is out there doing something that's better than what you're doing. So, you could have fatherhood FOMO. I see all my friends settling down, getting married, having kids. And I'm over here sitting at home on Tuesday night, watching Netflix, or whatever. Or I'm living the frat life at 30, or whatever it is for you. And so, you can have FOMO about fatherhood. And I think that when you feel those feelings how do you overcome FOMO? You do your due diligence. The perception that something is great out there is fed by an information asymmetry because you don't really know if that thing is as good as it looks. And so, perception can be deception. So, you've got to do the work.
Patrick McGinnis:
Spend time with a baby, talk to people. Do I want to do? I remember, as a kid you'd always see on sitcoms where the characters at their school would have to take care of like an egg for 24 hours. Remember that?
Khaled Kteily:
Right, don't break the egg.
Patrick McGinnis:
Exactly. I think, I actually played that.
Khaled Kteily:
Like a bag of flour.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah. But it's a great point. It's an opportunity to sort of have the experience of what it means to be responsible for a baby.
Khaled Kteily:
So, what if someone gets a pet, how close do we think that might be to represent taking care of a human being?
Patrick McGinnis:
It depends on where you live. If you live in the State of Maine, your dog lives in a dog house outside, and you feed it Alpo. If you live in New York City, it has its own room in the apartment and you feed it duck. And so, it just depends. It's a really interesting point. I would say, in some ways, I think it is a great sort of test drive but, obviously, the amount of complexity of having a child and, obviously, the whole sort of getting pregnant, and all of this stuff of having a baby, that's a whole different ball game. It's interesting. What do you think? I mean, I'm curious, do you think a dog is a good proxy?
Khaled Kteily:
I had a cat for 13 years. What kind of guy gets a cat in his second year of university? I'm still not sure.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah, that's a lot.
Khaled Kteily:
We don't need to delve too deep into that one. But one of my friends, at the time, sat me down, he had a cat as well, and he said, "Look, if you are adopting a pet, you need to be ready to make a 15 year commitment. If you move, they move. If you're hungry, they're hungry. Are you going to be able to take care of this creature for the next 15 years?" And so, I had to put my cat down recently, unfortunately, after a bout with cat cancer. I've had some very conflicted feelings about it because, obviously, she was a great cat.
But, at the same time, I now feel a sense of liberty that I didn't have before. I can go wherever I want. I don't have to worry about another creature. I don't have to worry about feeding her. And it was almost a little bit, I'm a little ashamed to say it, but almost a sense of relief. And it just got me thinking about, my gosh, I mean, a pet will live for 15 or so years, maybe longer. A human is not quite forever, but a human is there for decades. At least until they're 18, and you can kick them out of the house.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah. It's funny that you say about the cat because I know a number of people who've gotten animals who were basically like, "I live a crazy life. I'm never going to settle down and I'm all over the place. So, I'm going to get a dog, so that I'm forced to form attachments." And I actually saw one woman who did that and like three weeks later, she got rid of the dog. Now, she has three kids. So, who knows? But I do think that getting the dog as a way to force yourself to grow up is probably not the way to do it. If you're doing it because you generally want to form an attachment, then that seems a little bit like things are the right way around in that scenario.
I can't have a dog. Somebody gave me their dog because they couldn't have the dog. They got like kicked out of their house for the plumbing broke or whatever. They gave me their dog. And I realized, I'll fully admit it, one day I left the house at like 8:00 AM and I didn't get home till like 4:00 AM. And the poor dog, I came home and walked him, and fed him, and everything. But really, the dog, it's a big commitment. And so, when it's your baby, obviously, you're not going to do that. But it was kind of a moment that I was like, "Geez, I need to make a deeper commitment here."
Khaled Kteily:
It's interesting. We interview a lot of men, and we ask them how they feel about fatherhood, and what does that mean to them? And a theme that keeps coming back. There's two themes, that's particularly interesting. The first is that every man says, "I don't want to have kids until I'm ready to provide for my family." This idea of the breadwinner comes back. And it's a very kind of traditional definition of what it means to be "a man." Obviously, one that's changing a little bit, but very much ingrained in a lot of men who are in their 20s, 30s, and 40s today.
The other is this idea that, I'll frame it a little nicer, they don't want to fuck up their kids. That's really really what it comes down to. They want healthy kids. And they want to make sure that they are not traumatizing their kids in the same way that their parents traumatized them.
Patrick McGinnis:
Wow. I don't feel that way at all. I'd say the first one. I think it's very natural to feel that way. But the reality is the goalpost always moves. So, what I thought I needed when I was 20 or 30 changes. You think you need more every year because you start living a more expensive lifestyle. So, that is a moving objective. And, frankly, it's tough. So, I try not to go there with that because it is easy. "Oh, I should have a five bedroom apartment."
On the parents' thing, it's interesting because I actually have a good relationship with my parents. And I don't feel like they screwed me up. And so, I've never even thought about that. But I do know I have friends and very good friends who had really difficult parental relationships. And they do fear it. And, in fact, maybe even go to therapy to make sure that they don't inflict the same damage upon their own children. So, I can understand if you had a tough childhood, how that would factor into your thinking.
Khaled Kteily:
So, I'm going to flash forward again one more time, which is if, and when you choose to have a family, and you're thinking about raising your own son or daughter, how do you think about some of the values that you would want to pass on to your children? And when you think about your legacy, as far as your children's concern, how do you think about that?
Patrick McGinnis:
It's such a good question, and one that I do think about. And I think, about the way that I was raised. So, let me give you an example of what my parents did that I think, really, has been powerful. So, when I was a kid, anything we wanted to do, whether it was a science project, or whatever, school project, or like some esoteric hobby, whatever it was my parents embraced it fully. We were interested in revolutionary history, got in the car, drove to Boston, did the Freedom Trail. I wanted to do music, my parents got a piano, we took piano lessons. All these sorts of things. And so, therefore, we were always allowed to explore our interests.
And that's why probably today, my brother's a jazz musician. I went into business, and now I'm a writer, as well because we weren't put in boxes and told no. And so, I think that, for me, and I see this with my brother, he's doing this with his daughter. It's fundamentally fostering creativity, and allowing kids to be supported in their different interests, really truly supported, for me, that's super fundamental because you want to let the child explore their interests.
Khaled Kteily:
How do you think your own brother having a child recently, has that influenced you, or changed any of your decision-making, or kind of pushed you closer to, or further away from the idea of having kids of your own?
Patrick McGinnis:
I don't think it's changed any timelines necessarily. What I think it has done is you got to start ... really, it's much more tangible and it's not as an abstract. And, also, you start to realize how great it is to have a growing set of people in your family. When you've not had kids around, and then you do you're like, "Wow, really, it's so wonderful to have the next generation around." And, by the way, when you have a baby everybody just focuses on the baby. So, then the adults don't get scrutinized, so they're perfect. You want to have as many as possible.
Khaled Kteily:
Do you know how many kids you'd want to have?
Patrick McGinnis:
I think two feels good. Listen, all my friends who have three kids, three kids-
Khaled Kteily:
It feels like a lot.
Patrick McGinnis:
Holy mackerel.
Khaled Kteily:
It's an odd number. It messes everything up. You can't go on a rollercoaster ride together because one kid's always got to sit by themselves.
Patrick McGinnis:
Yeah, and, by the way, when you have three, that is God bless the people who have three and three plus. I think two is fantastic.
Khaled Kteily:
Yeah. Completely agree.
Khaled Kteily:
And one of the questions I really wanted to ask was, you have now written a couple of books. You've given a TED Talk. You have, in many ways, ticked a lot of the conventional boxes in a way that I think many men would look to you as the kind of person that they want to be. And the final question I really wanted to ask is, how do you think about balancing all the different aspects of your life? Not necessarily family today, possibly in the future, but the travel, the work, all of the various bits and pieces of your life, what advice would you have for men who are thinking about balancing their own lives?
Patrick McGinnis:
I look for synchronicity and harmony in what I do. So,, when you look at what I do and people always say to me, "Wow you do so many things." It's like, well, okay, you have your sort of your day job "business," which is advisory works. "Your advisor of the World Bank. And you're sitting on some boards. And then, you're doing investing. And you're part of a VC firm in Peru. And then, you've got all your 10%s, and then you wrote these books. And you have this pod ...." I mean, you look at it and it's like, holy mackerel. I mean, when I list it out I'm like [inaudible 00:31:56]. The reality is, if you look at it, if I were to sit down with somebody, and take them through all this stuff in detail, everything I do is tied into at least one other thing.
So, when I'm doing my investments, that's feeding knowledge that I use for other areas. When I'm doing my podcast, it drives book sales. When I write my books, it supports my my reputation as an investor. All this sort of stuff. And so, there's a lot of harmony there, which means that when I take an effort, think about like swimming, it's like each stroke it's multiple in value. It's not just the, value of that exertion.
Now, that being said. So then, okay, great. So, I find a lot of harmony and, therefore, they're sort of an efficiency to all of what I do. I've had to learn the hard way to say no to things. And so, I'm terrible at it because my FOMO. So, I'm generally really curious.
Khaled Kteily:
Well, thank you for agreeing to do this.
Patrick McGinnis:
Oh, well of course. I mean, well, when we talked, I was just like you're such a high quality human being that it's a way to hang. It's dual purposes here because, number one it's like we're just spending time together as friends and getting to know each other better. And then, also, supporting what you're doing. And then, we'll talk about the book. It has multiple meanings to me personally.
Now, in terms of travel and all the things that take time, what I've learned, and I think the pandemic is actually like a great influence on this, is just starting to think more carefully about how I value my own time, and how I invest that time. And how does that map to my objectives in life? So, yeah, you want to have a kid, well, you need to be in the same country as your wife. So, I started thinking about that. More design thinking around how to get to where you want to be.
Khaled Kteily:
That makes sense. And I will say something that I've been doing over the past few months, mostly for my work, but which has just been extremely informative personally, which is interviewing men who are trying to have a child, recently had a child. And it's amazing the kind of insights you get about parenthood and fatherhood from speaking to them.
So, final question for you, Patrick, which we ask of all of our speakers, which is what is your legacy?
Patrick McGinnis:
So, for me at this point, my legacy is giving people tools to make decisions that allow them to live their lives creatively, and in a way that allows them to achieve their objectives. So, not just doing the same old thing as we'd done in the past, but thinking differently about how we do things.
The reason I say it's my legacy is because I'm so fortunate to receive emails every day, messages from people all over the world about how these ideas have been powerfully transformative in their own lives. And so, I feel like I've been able to help all these people, a lot of people I'm never even going to meet. And that definitely fuels my work.
Khaled Kteily:
I love that. I'm going to sneak in one last question, which is what's the next term you're going to coin?
Patrick McGinnis:
So, I've been using the FOGO a lot, fear of going out. But somebody just-
Khaled Kteily:
Oh, that's good. That's pandemic relevant.
Patrick McGinnis:
It is. It's PR, as we call it. See, I come up with words, I mean, that was a lousy one, but I come up with words all the time. Seriously, it's like something I do every darn day.
Khaled Kteily:
You could partner with Fogo de Chao.
Patrick McGinnis:
Oh my goodness.
Khaled Kteily:
I'm just seeing a marketing campaign happening right there.
Patrick McGinnis:
Make a business out of this.
Khaled Kteily:
Yeah, we should do this more often, yeah. Awesome.
Khaled Kteily:
Well, Patrick, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your insights. We have a lot to learn from you. We have a lot to learn from what you've written, what you've spoken about. And I encourage everyone to go out and, if you haven't already, pick up a copy of the book, Fear of Missing Out: Practical Decision-Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice. Or even the 2016 version, The 10% Entrepreneur: Live Your Startup Dream Without Quitting Your Day Job. Again, thank you so much for being here, Patrick, we loved having you.
Patrick McGinnis:
Thank you so much.
Khaled Kteily:
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Building A Legacy Podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or whoever you get your podcasts from. We're new, appreciate your feedback. And we're excited to keep producing good content.